hotmtlnovel Chapter 125 Debate
Chapter 125 Debate
Chapter 125 Debate
"Ziqian!"
"Brother Zizhan, brother Ziyou!"
Outside Fanlou, Wang You alighted from his carriage and saw Su Shi and his brother, along with Wang Shao, waiting outside.
After exchanging greetings, Su Shi smiled and pointed to Wang Shao, saying, "This is Wang Zichun. You've met him before at Vice Minister Hai's residence."
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"I am Wang Shao from Jiangzhou, courtesy name Zichun. Greetings, Editor Wang!" Wang Shao bowed respectfully.
Although he is much older than Wang You, he is already thirty years old.
However, he and Su Shi were born in the same year, and Su Shi and Wang You were equals and friends.
According to the standards of peers, Wang You's official rank was higher than his.
"Brother Zichun, you're too kind."
Wang You quickly returned the greeting and said, "My name is Wang You, also known as Wang Ziqian. We both have the surname Wang, so perhaps our ancestors were even from the same family."
"Haha, Ziqian is right, Zichun, you're just too serious, it's a bit boring."
Su Shi laughed and said, "Let's go inside, eat and chat. After we finish our wine, we'll go to Guangyun Terrace to listen to music."
"Cough cough~"
Seeing that his elder brother was becoming increasingly incoherent, Su Zhe couldn't help but cough twice.
Wang You couldn't help but chuckle to himself upon seeing this. These two brothers, Su Shi, the elder brother, was a bit unreliable. Not only did he share his love for gourmet food, but he also preferred to frequent brothels.
This was actually a very common phenomenon among Song Dynasty literati.
Brothels were not only entertainment venues, but also social gathering places for literati and sources of creative inspiration. The government even kept singers to entertain officials.
Wang You knew Su Shi best among the famous figures of the Song Dynasty, and he didn't think that Su Shi didn't frequent brothels just because Su Shi's poem mourning his deceased wife was so affectionate.
In fact, the two are not related in essence.
According to Wang You, Su Shi not only had close relationships with courtesans, but also took one of them as a concubine.
He also helped some of his female confidantes from brothels to leave their profession and become respectable women.
On the contrary, Su Zhe, the younger brother, was much more mature.
Wang You and Su Shi were close, largely because they both loved food.
When Su Shi went to the capital to take the imperial examination, he was appreciated by Ouyang Xiu and was taken to the Hai family, where the two met.
They weren't familiar with each other at first, but one time Wang You heard that a restaurant made fish that was very good, so he went there to try it and happened to meet Su Shi.
After a while, we became familiar with each other.
Wang You also recommended many local delicacies in Bianjing to him.
Upon hearing his younger brother's cough, Su Shi chuckled and invited Wang You and the others into Fanlou.
We went to a private room on the second floor of the East Building, ordered our food, and sat down to chat.
Through casual conversation, Wang Youcai learned that although Su Shi and his brother were born in the same year as Wang Shao, they did not know each other at first.
This is normal; thousands of people participate in the imperial examination, but only two or three hundred are ultimately admitted.
It's normal to have no recollection of hundreds of people participating in the palace examination together.
They happened to be on a passenger ship on their way back to Beijing.
During a casual chat on the boat, they discovered that they were actually born in the same year.
The Su brothers also highly recognized Wang Shao's talent and recommended him to Ouyang Xiu after they arrived in the capital.
Once the food and drinks were served, the four of them toasted each other, and after a few drinks, they became much more familiar with each other.
"Ziqian, you didn't say anything about the situation at court this morning at Vice Minister Hai's house. What's your opinion on this matter?" Su Shi asked.
Does it matter how we view it?
Wang You put down his wine cup and smiled, saying, "Those in positions of power should fulfill their duties. Even if we have good ideas, in the end, we still have to wait for the Emperor and the officials in the court to make the decision."
"Ziqian, it's not pleasant for you to say that."
Su Shi said, "If we discuss this privately and express our own opinions, will it have any impact?"
"Okay, then I'll tell you."
Seeing that he couldn't refuse, Wang You put down his chopsticks and said, "Brother Ziyou considers the problem from a practical point of view, while what Brother Zizhan said, although reasonable, is a bit too idealistic."
My thoughts happen to coincide somewhat with those of Brother Zichun.
"Why do you say I'm too idealistic?" Su Shi asked, frowning.
Although Wang You praised his views, he also said that his views were too idealistic, which was tantamount to saying that he was all talk and no action.
Although Su Shi was not arrogant, he was still quite indignant that his views were considered too idealistic.
"In the war between Song and Xia, the Song Dynasty was the defeated party."
Wang You said, "Can we really get the things that the commander lost back from the Western Xia just by threatening them?"
Brother Zizhan said that by refusing to send troops, he could make the Western Xia give up the annual market. Didn't you think that this would be tantamount to deliberately showing weakness?
The Xia ruler was no ordinary person; he was capable of eliminating powerful ministers. How could he compromise simply because of the threat from the Song Dynasty?
On the contrary, in his eyes, the Song Dynasty's demand was more like a show of bravado masking weakness.
Have you considered the consequences if Western Xia refused and the Song Dynasty didn't send troops to punish them?
The Song Dynasty first compromised with the Liao Dynasty, and after winning the battle, it took the initiative to propose peace talks.
They fought against the Western Xia for several years but gained no advantage; on the contrary, they suffered a lot of losses.
Ultimately, the peace talks were just about buying face with money.
In the eyes of the Liao and Western Xia dynasties, the Song dynasty was an easy target.
With internal strife in Western Xia, the young emperor of Western Xia is indeed worried about the Song Dynasty sending troops.
But the Song Dynasty did not send troops directly; it only made threats. How could that intimidate an emperor who had eliminated powerful ministers at the age of fourteen?
Moreover, the young emperor of Western Xia is currently in dire need of establishing his prestige, and it is impossible for him to agree to the conditions of the Song Dynasty simply because he is threatened.
However, it is highly unlikely that the Song Dynasty will send troops. If they threaten the Western Xia and the Western Xia does not agree, the Song Dynasty will become a laughing stock.
In the future, who will still take the Song Dynasty seriously?
"Then let's send troops!"
Su Shi retorted, "Don't military strategy say that the best strategy is to subdue the enemy without fighting? The method I'm talking about is just to try to win by first being polite and then resorting to force."
"The problem is that the imperial court is unlikely to send troops. You know the current situation in the court. Most people in the court oppose sending troops, and the emperor is also preoccupied with the matter of choosing an heir. How can he have the mind to send troops?" Wang You shook his head and said.
"But you also said that Zichun's views coincide with yours, and that he also wants to send troops?" Su Shi frowned.
"That's different. I'm referring to the viewpoint, not the feasibility."
Wang You said, "I also think this is a golden opportunity. We should send troops, and even if we are not victorious, we should weaken the strength of Western Xia as much as possible."
"But what good would this do for the Song Dynasty?" Su Shi asked, frowning.
"Between countries, we cannot only look at the pros and cons; we must also consider the long-term implications."
Wang You shook his head and said, "How can one allow others to snore beside one's bed? This is a principle left by our ancestors."
The Song Dynasty, the Liao Dynasty, and the Western Xia Dynasty coexisted. Although they maintained peace for many years, it was impossible for peace to last forever.
The Liao and Western Xia kingdoms had been plagued by internal and external troubles in recent years, which was the main reason why the three kingdoms were able to maintain peace this time.
However, the Liao Dynasty had already dealt with Yelü Chongyuan, and the Western Xia Dynasty had also eliminated the powerful minister.
The two countries only need to consolidate their internal affairs and recuperate for a few years until their national strength recovers, at which point they will naturally launch military raids on their borders.
Since war is inevitable, we should take advantage of the internal strife in Western Xia to weaken its strength.
"Ziqian's words are very good!"
Wang Shao clapped his hands and cheered, saying, "The loss of the Sixteen Prefectures of Yan and Yun has left the northern part of the Great Song Dynasty without any natural defenses."
At this time, the Song Dynasty was like a wealthy man with his door wide open, but his neighbors didn't come in. It wasn't that they didn't covet the wealthy man's wealth, but rather that they didn't make a move for various reasons.
Once they have the opportunity, or when their family needs more money, this wealthy man with his door open will become their target.
Therefore, it is absolutely necessary to reclaim the Sixteen Prefectures of Yan and Yun and close our own doors.
But at this point, the power to close the gate was no longer in the hands of the wealthy man, but in the hands of their neighbor, the Liao Kingdom.
However, if the Song Dynasty and the Liao Dynasty were to go to war in the future, the Western Xia would inevitably invade the border.
To recover the Sixteen Prefectures of Yan and Yun, we must first deal with the Western Xia!
Su Shi still disagreed with this statement, as did Su Zhe.
"Alright, let's not talk about this anymore, let's drink," Wang You said, changing the subject.
This is no longer a debate about whether or not to send troops, but a difference in ideology between civil and military perspectives.
As mentioned earlier, before the Song Dynasty, there was no strict distinction between civil officials and military generals.
Even though the Tang Dynasty had the imperial examination system, the content of the examinations was not strictly limited.
Most scholars, while studying literature, also learn military strategy and tactics.
However, by the Song Dynasty, the content of the imperial examinations had been limited to Confucianism and classical texts.
Scholars are single-mindedly focused on studying Confucian classics and thought, and few are distracted by studying other books before they pass the imperial examinations.
This led to scholars being deeply influenced by Confucianism. It's not that Confucianism is bad, but it made scholars more inclined to rely on political means to solve problems.
In their view, war would not be easily started unless absolutely necessary.
But as the saying goes, war is a continuation of politics.
When you are strong, political means can solve everything, but when you are weak, you have to use military force to make your words carry weight.
Although Wang Shao was a scholar, he also enjoyed studying military strategy and tactics, and he knew that normal political means were no longer effective, so he supported war.
Although the Su brothers were exceptionally talented, they had only been in official positions for a little over a year, and their thinking and problem-solving methods were still at the level of literati.
They didn't talk about these things after that, but instead talked about their experiences in the local area.
Although Wang You did not hold a local post, he had spent many years there and was able to get involved in conversations.
"Fuchang County, where I served, was relatively wealthy, but the local people were not. After careful investigation, I found that most of them did not own land and could only become tenant farmers. Some people could only make a living by working," Su Shi sighed.
"This actually has nothing to do with whether the people have land or not."
Wang You stated, "The fundamental reason for the people's poverty is that the imperial court lacks protection for tenant farmers and laborers."
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It is true that the Song Dynasty was the wealthiest dynasty among feudal dynasties, but this wealth had nothing to do with ordinary people.
The truly wealthy were the officials, merchants, landlords, and gentry.
To put it bluntly, the wealthy in the Song Dynasty were mostly from certain social classes, not ordinary people.
The Song Dynasty was a prosperous commercial society, and its handicrafts and manufacturing industries were also highly developed.
However, the imperial court provided no protection for tenant farmers and laborers, leaving them vulnerable to exploitation.
Needless to say, the tenant farmers, who worked for landlords and gentry, could barely make ends meet all year round.
The laborers were similar, many of whom were even selected from tenant farmers' households.
Without corresponding legal protection, people have no choice but to accept exploitation in order to make a living.
"How will the imperial court protect us?"
Su Shi asked in bewilderment, "You can't expect the landlord to provide the tenants and laborers with a certain amount of grain and wages, can you?"
If that's the case, those workshops will likely buy large numbers of people to work for them, which will not only lead to many people selling their children, but also leave the workers without a livelihood.
Wang You shook his head; Su Shi was still a bit naive.
Some people believe that Su Shi was very capable of governing local areas, but Wang You can see his naivety from Su Shi's poem "Ode to Pork".
The rich refuse to eat it, and the poor don't know how to cook it.
It means that the rich don't care about pork, and the poor don't know how to cook it.
But how did he make his Dongpo pork?
It needs to be simmered over low heat with Shaoxing wine and some seasonings.
Putting aside the value of rice wine and seasonings, just the slow simmering over low heat is something that ordinary people don't have the time for.
In fact, ordinary people cook their food by adding just a little oil and salt and then boiling it.
Following Su Shi's approach, only ordinary people could afford to do that.
This shows that Su Shi did not really understand the hardships of ordinary people.
He wrote this poem in his later years.
Having served as an official for so many years, the fact that he doesn't even understand the situation of the most ordinary people is enough to show how idealistic he is.
"It is very important to ensure the income of people at the bottom of society."
Wang You said, "Only when the imperial court establishes corresponding laws and regulations stipulating the remuneration that ordinary people can receive for farming or working for landlords and gentry can the interests of ordinary people be guaranteed."
As for the issue of hiring workers due to increased expenses, that can also be resolved.
Simply stipulate that purchased servants must not be used for work, and establish severe penalties.
But if the punishment is severe enough, naturally no one will dare to break the rules!
"Can--"
"alright."
Before Su Shi could say anything more, Su Zhe said, "It's getting late, let's call it a day. We can get together again another time."
Wang You and Wang Shao didn't say anything upon hearing this. After the four of them left Fanlou, they said goodbye to each other and left by carriage.
"Ziyou, why didn't you let me speak just now?" Su Shi asked, frowning.
"Does elder brother think there's any point in continuing this debate?"
Su Zhe shook his head and said, "Ziqian said that my brother is too idealistic, but isn't what he said also true?"
I don’t deny that there’s some truth to what he said, but it has always been this way. How difficult it is to make laws.
Arguing about something meaningless is just a waste of time.
,"No!"
Su Shi shook his head and said, "I think this method is very good. Every dynasty has had the problem of land annexation, but no one has been able to solve it."
The fundamental reason why land annexation leads to the downfall of a country is that the income of the people is not guaranteed.
As long as the relevant laws are strictly formulated to protect the livelihoods of the lower classes, what difference does it make whether land is merged or not?
"I also said that what he said made sense."
Su Zhe reaffirmed Wang You's words, then asked in return, "But what if those landlords and gentry resist, preferring to leave the fields barren rather than let the people cultivate them?"
Landlords and gentry could tolerate land lying fallow for a year, but what about the common people?
"It doesn't even take a year; just one month without income will be enough for the people to revolt."
"Brother, you should avoid associating with this person in the future."
Su Zhe said, "I heard from Zigu that he once suggested a pilot program to Jie Fu, which shows that he supports reform. This can also be seen from his remarks just now."
"But the imperial court is indeed plagued by serious problems. Didn't you quite agree with the new policies of that time?"